Legislature(2009 - 2010)BARNES 124

03/12/2009 03:00 PM House ENERGY


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03:06:14 PM Start
03:06:34 PM Overview: Fuel Pricing in Rural Alaska
05:06:13 PM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ Overview: Fuel Pricing in Rural Alaska TELECONFERENCED
-- Testimony <Invitation Only> --
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
               HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON ENERGY                                                                              
                         March 12, 2009                                                                                         
                           3:06 p.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Bryce Edgmon, Co-Chair                                                                                           
Representative Charisse Millett, Co-Chair                                                                                       
Representative Nancy Dahlstrom                                                                                                  
Representative Kyle Johansen                                                                                                    
Representative Jay Ramras                                                                                                       
Representative Pete Petersen                                                                                                    
Representative Chris Tuck                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
All members present                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Overview:  Fuel Pricing in Rural Alaska                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
No previous action to report                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
ED SNIFFEN, Senior Assistant Attorney General                                                                                   
Commercial/Fair Business Section                                                                                                
Civil Division                                                                                                                  
Department of Law                                                                                                               
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  Advised the witnesses.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MEERA KOHLER, President and CEO                                                                                                 
Alaska Village Electric Cooperative (AVEC)                                                                                      
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified during the hearing on fuel                                                                     
pricing in rural Alaska.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
KIRK PAYNE, Chief Operating Officer                                                                                             
Northstar Utilities Group                                                                                                       
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified during the hearing on fuel                                                                     
pricing in rural Alaska.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
ELAINE BROWN, General Manager                                                                                                   
NorthStar Gas                                                                                                                   
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION  STATEMENT:    Testified  during  the  hearing  on  fuel                                                             
pricing in rural Alaska.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CRAIG TORNGA, General Manager                                                                                                   
Oil Industry Services                                                                                                           
Crowley Marine in Alaska                                                                                                        
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION  STATEMENT:    Testified  during  the  hearing  on  fuel                                                             
pricing in rural Alaska.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
JUSTIN CHARON, Independent Consultant                                                                                           
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION  STATEMENT:    Testified  during  the  hearing  on  fuel                                                             
pricing in rural Alaska.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SMOKEY NORTON, Director of Marketing                                                                                            
Petro Marine Services                                                                                                           
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION  STATEMENT:    Testified  during  the  hearing  on  fuel                                                             
pricing in rural Alaska.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
3:06:14 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  BRYCE  EDGMON called  the  House  Special Committee  on                                                             
Energy meeting to order at  3:06 p.m.  Representatives Dahlstrom,                                                               
Ramras, Johansen,  Petersen, Millett, and Edgmon  were present at                                                               
the call  to order.   Representative Tuck arrived as  the meeting                                                               
was in progress.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
3:06:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
^OVERVIEW:  FUEL PRICING IN RURAL ALASKA                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR EDGMON announced  that the only order  of business would                                                               
be an overview on fuel pricing  in rural Alaska.  He then invited                                                               
Mr. Sniffen, representing the Department  of Law (DOL), to advise                                                               
the witnesses on the scope of their testimony.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
3:07:49 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ED  SNIFFEN, Senior  Assistant Attorney  General, Commercial/Fair                                                               
Business  Section, Civil  Division, Department  of Law,  reminded                                                               
participants to be cautious in  their discussion of competitively                                                               
sensitive pricing information.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
3:09:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MEERA  KOHLER,   President  and  CEO,  Alaska   Village  Electric                                                               
Cooperative (AVEC),  informed the committee  that AVEC is  a non-                                                               
profit  electric  utility  serving   53  villages,  primarily  in                                                               
Western and Northwestern Alaska.   The population served is about                                                               
22,000 residents,  thus AVEC represents  about 45 percent  of the                                                               
villages in Alaska.  The  Alaska Village Electric Cooperative has                                                               
48 power  plants and tank  farms in the  villages.  Last  year it                                                               
purchased  about  5.5  million  gallons of  fuel  in  bulk  that,                                                               
unfortunately, was purchased at or  above $4.00 per gallon during                                                               
the peak  of the high oil  prices.  The average  landed price was                                                               
$4.70  per  gallon  resulting  in  an increase  to  the  cost  of                                                               
electricity  in the  villages.   The average  fuel surcharge  for                                                               
electricity ranged from  37 cents to 58 cents  per kilowatt hour.                                                               
On the other hand, villages  with wind generation paid the lowest                                                               
charge of 25  cents per kilowatt hour.  She  continued to explain                                                               
fuel is  purchased for a  three-year period, with  two additional                                                               
one-year periods that  are elective to add to the  contract.  Ms.                                                               
Kohler said  AVEC has  just ended a  five-year contract  that was                                                               
exclusive  to a  single  supplier serving  Western  Alaska.   She                                                               
stated at  the conclusion of  the bidding process for  this year,                                                               
the cost for  the transportation of fuel for the  next period had                                                               
gone up dramatically.   She opined this change  is not surprising                                                               
because, for  the previous five  years, the cost was  "locked in"                                                               
with a  small consumer  price index (CPI)  increase.   Ms. Kohler                                                               
surmised the  supplier absorbed this  increase in the past.   The                                                               
cooperative hoped  for additional competition during  the bidding                                                               
process this year; unfortunately, the  bulk of its purchases will                                                               
go  to same  single  transportation  agent again.    Even at  the                                                               
current price,  the cost  of fuel  in the  villages will  be from                                                               
$2.50  to $3  per gallon  unless there  is a  dramatic oil  price                                                               
increase.   Ms. Kohler  said the economy  is starting  to recover                                                               
and she  expects the  price of  oil to be  $100 per  barrel again                                                               
within two years.  She  expressed her understanding that the cost                                                               
of transporting fuel  is high; however, she  encouraged the state                                                               
to  discuss methods  to bring  in more  competition.   Ms. Kohler                                                               
concluded  that  the  reality  of rural  Alaska  is  "what  small                                                               
quantities of fuel we use."                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
3:14:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  RAMRAS recalled  the committee's  visit to  small                                                               
communities, and regional  hub communities, in rural  Alaska.  He                                                               
asked for the  range of kilowatt production from  the smallest to                                                               
the largest communities.   In addition, he asked for  the age and                                                               
condition of the transmission grids for these communities.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
3:16:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  KOHLER assured  the committee  AVEC  enjoys "extremely  good                                                               
line  loss numbers."    In fact,  the average  line  loss of  the                                                               
distribution  system  is  about  4.5 percent.    This  amount  is                                                               
competitive with any large utility  in the country.  In addition,                                                               
AVEC achieved an  average kilowatt hour sales per  gallon of fuel                                                               
last year of 12.92.   The smallest system is in  Anvik, a town of                                                               
100 people, and the largest is  Hooper Bay, a town that has about                                                               
1,100 people; however, the range  of efficiency is comparable and                                                               
the amount of  kilowatt hours per gallon is about  the same.  Ms.                                                               
Kohler  noted that  AVEC  worked with  the  manufacturers of  the                                                               
generation engines to achieve efficiency.   Although AVEC can not                                                               
achieve what Nome  did because of the size of  its generators, it                                                               
can get  about 13.5 kilowatt hours  per gallon of fuel,  which is                                                               
about  what Dillingham  gets.   She  asked the  committee not  to                                                               
compare AVEC with a "stand  alone" village because [AVEC] is able                                                               
to maintain  high levels  of efficiency  longer than  is possible                                                               
for  a  village.    Regarding  transmission  system  losses,  she                                                               
indicated that AVEC built lines  to connect Tununak and Nightmute                                                               
to the wind  generators at Toksook Bay, resulting  in a reduction                                                               
of the  fuel surcharge component  to 25 cents per  hour; however,                                                               
wind  can never  provide more  than 40  percent of  a community's                                                               
power.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
3:18:48 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. KOHLER  informed the committee  AVEC recently  energized wind                                                               
systems  in Savoonga  and Hooper  Bay,  and will  soon have  wind                                                               
systems in Gambell  and Chevak.  Gambell and  Savoonga are "class                                                               
seven wind regimes,  which is the very best."   The cooperative's                                                               
goal is to reduce diesel consumption  by 25 percent in ten years,                                                               
"but it's going to take a lot of wind generators."                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
3:19:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PETERSEN asked whether AVEC  was in the process of                                                               
installing  more wind  generators  paid for  by  grants from  the                                                               
renewable energy fund.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
3:19:43 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. KOHLER  said yes.  New  systems are going in  at Savoonga and                                                               
Chevak  and  all  have  been   funded  primarily  by  the  Denali                                                               
Commission and the rural utility  service (RUS).  The cooperative                                                               
received  $10  million in  grants  through  the renewable  energy                                                               
appropriation that will  add one turbine to  Toksook Bay, provide                                                               
a  complete  new system  in  Quinhagak  and Mekoryuk,  provide  a                                                               
modest  system  in  Ambler, and  fund  hydroelectric  feasibility                                                               
[studies] in two places.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
3:20:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  EDGMON called  the focus  of the  meeting back  to fuel                                                               
pricing.     He  asked  for   a  description  of   the  different                                                               
circumstances of fuel pricing in communities.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
3:21:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  KOHLER  stated  the  delivered  cost of  fuel  to  AVEC  has                                                               
historically been less than that  of other entities.  The primary                                                               
reasons  are that  AVEC  is a  credit-worthy  customer; orders  a                                                               
large  amount  of  fuel  early  in the  spring,  and  allows  the                                                               
transporter to  deliver at its  convenience.  On the  other hand,                                                               
with deliveries to  a local business or city there  may be issues                                                               
about  the  timeliness of  the  order  and  the ability  to  pay.                                                               
Furthermore, the local  retailer adds its cost of  delivery.  She                                                               
advised  AVEC business  plans for  the  tank farms  it builds  in                                                               
rural Alaska  for the Denali  Commission, reveal it  is necessary                                                               
to add  35 cents to $1  per gallon for delivery  costs.  However,                                                               
Ms. Kohler stated  the fuel prices in the  villages reported from                                                               
the  Department of  Commerce, Community,  & Economic  Development                                                               
(DCCED),  Division  of  Community  and  Regional  Affairs  (DCRA)                                                               
"don't  necessarily relate  to that,  and I  don't know  what the                                                               
difference is ... "                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
3:23:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DAHLSTROM asked how  the amount of fuel purchased,                                                               
and the way it is stored, determines pricing and rates.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
3:24:01 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  KOHLER explained  AVEC strives  to have  14 months  worth of                                                               
fuel stored at each location.   Purchasing all of the needed fuel                                                               
at one  time saves  the additional cost  of later  deliveries and                                                               
scheduling problems.  Her organization  plans to have enough fuel                                                               
to  last until  spring  with  one month  leeway.    The costs  of                                                               
storage are  about 6 to  7 cents per  gallon and are  absorbed by                                                               
the cooperative.   She noted at this time of  year, AVEC is often                                                               
contacted  by  other organizations  who  wish  to buy  or  borrow                                                               
excess fuel,  although that is  not something it does.   However,                                                               
AVEC does  work closely  with schools  and most  school districts                                                               
are  allowed  to  "piggy-back  on our  fuel  contract."    During                                                               
negotiations  for the  fuel contract  this year,  AVEC asked  for                                                               
three-year  bids   with  two  one-year  extensions;   however,  a                                                               
proposer was  reluctant to quote  for more  than one year  due to                                                               
the  problems with  the Flint  Hills refinery.   The  cooperative                                                               
decided  to go  ahead on  a  one-year contract  with its  primary                                                               
supplier in the  hope that next year it will  have better prices,                                                               
especially  for transportation.   Regarding  the electric  rates,                                                               
Ms. Kohler  explained the cooperative  buys fuel for  53 villages                                                               
and is  required to get  approval from the  Regulatory Commission                                                               
of Alaska  (RCA) on its fuel  cost charge.  The  RCA approves the                                                               
fuel  cost charge  and  sets the  power  cost equalization  (PCE)                                                               
level at the same time.  For  example, last year the PCE level of                                                               
$1 per  kilowatt hour went into  effect on the first  of October,                                                               
and  AVEC  submitted for  its  approval  sometime in  October  or                                                               
November.  Therefore, the AVEC  fuel charge will not change soon,                                                               
and last  year's high cost of  fuel will be seen  in the electric                                                               
bills through next October.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
3:28:22 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR EDGMON observed this is  a tough winter for Bush Alaska.                                                               
He asked what  may happen to consumers if high  prices return for                                                               
another two or three years.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
3:28:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. KOHLER  recalled last  year there  was not  a higher  rate of                                                               
delinquency; however,  this last  winter consumers  have "started                                                               
to reach their  breaking point because their  cash resources were                                                               
not  enough to  cover their  energy  costs and  their other  cash                                                               
needs."  She  opined similar costs in the coming  winter "will be                                                               
the straw that breaks backs."                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
3:30:04 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  RAMRAS  asked  how  many  average  kilowatts  are                                                               
consumed by the  cooperative's customers as opposed  to the rates                                                               
in more urban areas.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
3:30:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  KOHLER answered  village residents'  actual average  monthly                                                               
use is  390 kilowatt hours.   In the Northwest and  Nenana region                                                               
use is  higher because of  sewage pumps and piped  water systems.                                                               
The average use in Anchorage  and Fairbanks is 700 kilowatt hours                                                               
per month.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
3:31:27 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS  asked whether  the volume of  kilowatt use                                                               
increased in  the communities with  wind generation  that brought                                                               
the price down to 25 cents per kilowatt hour.                                                                                   
3:31:57 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  KOHLER said  no,  because PCE  adjusted  the difference  and                                                               
there  was   no  reduction  in   price  to   residents,  although                                                               
businesses benefitted.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
3:32:25 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  MILLETT  asked whether  AVEC  felt  the impact  of  the                                                               
permanent fund dividend (PFD) and  state resource rebate payments                                                               
to residents.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
3:32:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  KOHLER  said yes.    The  cooperative was  overwhelmed  with                                                               
payments; in  fact, some residents  left a large credit  on their                                                               
accounts.   In  further response  to Co-chair  Millett, she  said                                                               
payments at the time of the PFD are always high.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
3:33:45 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
KIRK PAYNE,  Chief Operating Officer, Northstar  Utilities Group,                                                               
informed  the committee  that the  companies operating  under the                                                               
umbrella  of  Northstar  Utilities  Group  in  Alaska  are  Delta                                                               
Western and  Inlet Petroleum.   He  addressed the  questions that                                                               
were previously  submitted to  him by the  committee.   The first                                                               
question was:   Can you list  out some of the  components of fuel                                                               
pricing that could  explain disparities in the cost  of fuel from                                                               
one village  to another?  Mr.  Payne said the first  component of                                                               
fuel pricing was  commodity cost, which can vary from  day to day                                                               
and from region to region, and  is dictated by supply and demand.                                                               
The next cost to consider was  operating expense that is the cost                                                               
of operating transportation  equipment, labor, fuel, disposables,                                                               
and inspection  services.  The  third consideration  was logistic                                                               
inefficiency caused by the direct  delivery of fuel that requires                                                               
the fuel  to be transported by  more than one piece  of equipment                                                               
to  various terminals  scheduled around  weather, tides,  product                                                               
availability, and dock  space.  The fourth  consideration was the                                                               
cost to  carry the  product for  a long time  as it  voyages from                                                               
Seattle; in  fact, it  may be  sixty days or,  if a  port becomes                                                               
iced   in,  eight   months  to   final  delivery.     The   fifth                                                               
consideration  was  operating  risk  due  to  the  cost  of  non-                                                               
performance  of contracts  and  deliveries  made under  difficult                                                               
conditions such as  low water, extreme tides,  wind, weather, and                                                               
waves.   Mr. Payne said there  are also compliance costs,  as the                                                               
industry is  a much regulated  industry at the federal  and state                                                               
level, and  Northstar intends to  be 100 percent compliant.   The                                                               
seventh [component]  was supply risk  as the fuel is  procured in                                                               
advance,  "but there's  a  lot  of water  between  a  lift and  a                                                               
delivery," he said.   Although his company arranges  for the pick                                                               
up of the  product at the refinery,  it may not be  there, or the                                                               
dock may  not be  available.  The  next consideration  was credit                                                               
risk.   Obviously, he said, his  company must be sure  it will be                                                               
paid  for  its product.    Next  was  the environmental  risk  of                                                               
operating  in some  of the  most pristine  country in  the world.                                                               
Mr. Payne pointed  out that petroleum products  are very volatile                                                               
and there  is handling and  breathing loss each time  the product                                                               
is transferred.  The next  component was the terminal through-put                                                               
fees  assessed each  time  the product  is  handled before  final                                                               
distribution.  Next,  he noted the cost of  general insurance and                                                               
specific coverage regarding pollution and  cargo.  Mr. Payne said                                                               
the company  must also consider  the equipment capital  costs for                                                               
marine  assets  that  are only  utilized  during  Alaska's  short                                                               
season.   Also, on the horizon  is the new [Oil  Pollution Act of                                                               
1990 (OPA  90)] requirement for  doubled hulled barges;  to date,                                                               
there  is  only  one  line-haul   barge  in  service  in  Alaska.                                                               
Furthermore, he  advised that  the lighterage  fleet is  old and,                                                               
although exempt  from OPA 90,  requires re-investment.   Finally,                                                               
there are local  sales taxes levied by municipalities  on fuel on                                                               
a percentage basis, pipeline fees,  through-put fees, and moorage                                                               
fees.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. PAYNE addressed the second question  that was:  In any of the                                                               
components  you listed  - could  you talk  about instances  where                                                               
your company may have had wide  variations in costs from one trip                                                               
to the  next?  He  responded that commodity  cost has a  very big                                                               
impact on that  question; in fact, the volatility  [of the price]                                                               
was high  last year, combined  with uncertainties in  weather for                                                               
each voyage.   Question three was:   Do you see  anything cities,                                                               
villages, or utilities  could be doing process-wise  to lower the                                                               
ultimate  price  consumers  are  paying?    Mr.  Payne  suggested                                                               
planning ahead can lower the cost  of the delivery of fuel.  Some                                                               
communities and  users do  not order until  the last  moment and,                                                               
from   a  transportation   logistics   perspective,  that   makes                                                               
[deliveries] even more inefficient  and expensive.  Question four                                                               
was:   Any factors that can  help us learn about  pricing of fuel                                                               
products in areas of Alaska off  the road system?  He opined that                                                               
the components listed  in the first question "tells  the story of                                                               
what the issues are."   Question five was:  What  can you tell us                                                               
about   infrastructure   advantages   such   as   tank   storage,                                                               
distributor  relationships  or  other  factors  that  might  have                                                               
direct  effects on  retail  price  at the  community  level?   He                                                               
explained  that  larger  orders  are not  always  the  most  cost                                                               
effective as in  the case of an order of  150,000 gallons of fuel                                                               
to be delivered  by a vessel with 100,000 gallons  of space.  Mr.                                                               
Payne  reiterated that  pre-planning would  make a  difference in                                                               
this example.   Question six was:   Are there any  regulations or                                                               
restrictions  that you  can  identify  that play  a  role in  the                                                               
overall  cost of  your  products?   He  predicted that  line-haul                                                               
equipment  compliance  with  OPA  90  will be  a  big  issue,  in                                                               
addition to  changes in coastwise  tugboat regulations  that will                                                               
"impact  the  whole  fleet."    Furthermore,  the  Department  of                                                               
Transportation  & Public  Facilities  (DOTPF) has  a rule  change                                                               
coming  that will  affect truck  sales and  increase the  cost of                                                               
fuel.   Question seven was: Where  do you purchase the  fuel?  If                                                               
outside, why isn't the fuel purchased  in Alaska?  Mr. Payne said                                                               
his  company buys  fuel inside  and outside  of Alaska  depending                                                               
either on the logistics or the price.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
3:44:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   DAHLSTROM  asked   for   the   average  age   of                                                               
Northstar's equipment.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
3:44:45 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. PAYNE said Northstar has  two lighterage barges, one of which                                                               
is under  repair and after  will be  "a new piece  of equipment."                                                               
However, the average  barge in the lighterage fleet  was built in                                                               
1960.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
3:45:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DAHLSTROM asked how  Northstar plans for equipment                                                               
expenses;  for example,  are incurred  costs  "figured into  next                                                               
year's pricing."                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
3:45:33 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. PAYNE advised for a business  to remain viable, there must be                                                               
reinvestment in the  business; however, the business  must have a                                                               
profit to reinvest.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
3:45:59 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS  asked whether  a major  capital investment                                                               
in a village will "factor into pricing" for that village.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
3:46:46 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. PAYNE pointed  out terminals owned and  operated by Northstar                                                               
must be sustainable.  He said,  "There is no good answer, in this                                                               
venue, to  say this is how  much we would spend  on this terminal                                                               
[and]  this on  this one.    Long term,  the business  has to  be                                                               
viable."                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
3:47:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS restated the question.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
3:47:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  PAYNE further  explained  each terminal  needs  to make  the                                                               
money  to support  its improvements.   Northstar's  business plan                                                               
looks at reinvestment over 30 to 50 years.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
3:48:16 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS described a  situation in which the average                                                               
cost of  fuel is  $5.   Would the expenditure  of $1  million for                                                               
capital improvements  cause an increase to  $6 or $7 in  the cost                                                               
of fuel  specifically for  that village?   He said  the committee                                                               
was told  there was a $1  variation in the price  of fuel between                                                               
communities only 10 miles apart.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
3:49:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. PAYNE advised the income  stream for each of those facilities                                                               
over the previous ten years  should already have been "built-in."                                                               
Northstar makes a continual reinvestment over long-term.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
3:49:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  RAMRAS asked  how $5  million in  costs would  be                                                               
amortized for a community.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
3:50:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  PAYNE  said  the  costs  are  amortized  according  to  U.S.                                                               
generally accepted accounting principles (GAAP).                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
3:50:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS remarked:                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
         GAAP in relation to the government, or GAAP in                                                                         
      relation to the communities that you serve, that is                                                                       
     the question I'm trying to ...                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
3:50:39 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. PAYNE said, "GAAP related to maintaining investment grade."                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
3:50:59 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS asked "What kind  of a return on investment                                                               
do you strive for?"                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. PAYNE declined  to answer.  In further response  to a request                                                               
from  Representative Ramras,  Mr. Payne  declined to  provide the                                                               
committee with copies of his notes.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
3:51:43 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ELAINE  BROWN,  General  Manager,  NorthStar  Gas,  informed  the                                                               
committee NorthStar  Gas is a Native-owned  petroleum distributor                                                               
within Western Alaska.   NorthStar delivers fuel  on a three-year                                                               
contract with  two one-year  extensions and  is currently  at the                                                               
end of  its present contract.   The company   brokers all  of the                                                               
fuel delivered  to the Yukon-Kuskokwim  coast and is  planning to                                                               
expand  into the  Norton Sound-NANA  region,  and the  Dillingham                                                               
region.   NorthStar  was established  in 1998  and delivers  fuel                                                               
village by village.  It  also assists villages with financing and                                                               
deliveries.    Ms. Brown  addressed  question  one and  said  her                                                               
company determined there are three  components to fuel pricing in                                                               
rural communities: the  market from which the  fuel is purchased;                                                               
the transportation  costs by  gallon to  each community;  and the                                                               
costs of overhead and maintenance that  can be fixed, such as the                                                               
size of  the tank farm  and insurance,  or variable, such  as the                                                               
age of  the tank farm and  the number of employees  operating the                                                               
tank farm.   She  then gave  an example of  five villages  on the                                                               
Yukon River  that pay a fixed  price for fuel but  have differing                                                               
costs for overhead, maintenance,  and profit margin, resulting in                                                               
a difference in fuel cost of between $.5 and $1.50.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
3:55:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  EDGMON  asked  whether   NorthStar  was  the  one  fuel                                                               
cooperative in Alaska.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
3:55:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  BROWN said  no, Norton  Sound also  has a  fuel cooperative.                                                               
She then  addressed question  two and  reiterated her  example of                                                               
the NorthStar  Gas contract for transportation  that remained the                                                               
same for each  community.  However, for a community  that did not                                                               
participate  with a  company that  had a  contract, its  delivery                                                               
price was  open to fair  market value.   This is one  reason fuel                                                               
prices can vary  between villages.  She  addressed question three                                                               
and suggested  the price  of fuel  would decrease  if communities                                                               
would band  together, become credit-worthy,  and purchase  all of                                                               
their  fuel  from   one  entity.    Ms.   Brown  stressed  credit                                                               
worthiness  is a  major  factor and  her  organization helps  get                                                               
loans approved;   in fact,  loan applications  are time-consuming                                                               
and a  delay in loan  approval also may delay  a fuel order.   In                                                               
addition, early  loan approval  could allow  for one  delivery of                                                               
fuel, which would be a huge  savings on transportation.  Also, if                                                               
each  community would  combine its  tank farms  there would  be a                                                               
savings  in  overhead.   She  addressed  question four  and  said                                                               
factors  for   regions  off  the   road  system   are:  overhead,                                                               
maintenance,  transportation,  and  the market.    She  addressed                                                               
question five and said Northstar Gas  does not own tank farms but                                                               
negotiates on behalf  of rural communities.   Negotiating for all                                                               
of  the  region  would  lower  prices  on  transportation.    She                                                               
addressed  question six  and  suggested  Alaska Energy  Authority                                                               
(AEA)  loan  applications  should   be  streamlined.    Regarding                                                               
question seven, she said NorthStar Gas does not own fuel.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
4:00:18 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DAHLSTROM asked  whether  residents  travel to  a                                                               
neighboring village to buy fuel at a lower price.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS.  BROWN said  yes.   She  gave an  example  of three  villages                                                               
within one  or two miles of  each other where the  residents fill                                                               
fifty-gallon drums to save money.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
4:01:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DAHLSTROM asked whether  residents were aware that                                                               
the higher-priced fuel "would still be there."                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
4:01:57 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  BROWN   pointed out  people drive  out of  their way  to buy                                                               
cheaper fuel in Anchorage.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
4:02:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DAHLSTROM  asked why the village  government would                                                               
set a higher price and discourage local business.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
4:02:46 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  BROWN said  she  can  not speak  for  the  village board  of                                                               
directors;  however,  each   community  must  consider  operating                                                               
expenses and its profit margin.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
4:03:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DAHLSTROM  asked whether this would  happen if the                                                               
distance between communities was great.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
4:03:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. BROWN  suggested this  would still  happen if  relatives were                                                               
visiting or if a village ran out of fuel.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
4:04:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PETERSEN  referred to Ms. Brown's  observations on                                                               
the loan process and asked for her suggestions.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
4:05:05 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. BROWN suggested  expansion of the AEA loan  approval from one                                                               
year to  three or five years  would streamline the process.   The                                                               
loans could also  be set up similarly to an  open line of credit;                                                               
this would  be helpful in that  the annual waiver would  not have                                                               
to be  signed during  fishing season when  officials are  at fish                                                               
camp.   Furthermore, if AEA  administrators would begin  the loan                                                               
approval  process  after  receipt  of a  facsimile  copy  of  the                                                               
application, there would  be a time savings.   She also suggested                                                               
the  loan could  be  approved  on the  basis  of the  applicant's                                                               
payment  history,  but subject  to  the  final payment  from  the                                                               
previous year.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
4:07:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS  spoke about  the possibility of  a Pacific                                                               
NorthWest  Economic Region  (PNWER)  summit  between small  rural                                                               
Canadian communities  and like communities  in Alaska  to discuss                                                               
problem  solving  in  remote  regions.   He  then  disclosed  his                                                               
personal  experience  was  that  last summer,  the  gross  profit                                                               
margin on  fuel in Fairbanks was  20 cents per gallon.   He asked                                                               
for Ms.  Brown to estimate the  gross profit for the  entities in                                                               
her area.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
4:10:16 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  BROWN said  the gross  profit is  unique to  each community.                                                               
Although  she was  unsure  of  the basis  upon  which the  profit                                                               
margin is  set, she estimated  profits run  from 5 percent  to 40                                                               
percent.   Ms.  Brown listed  four villages  with a  disparity in                                                               
overhead costs and how they  calculated their profit margin.  She                                                               
said there  are efforts  to encourage  "everybody, [to]  at least                                                               
[use] one formula, but that changes community by community."                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
4:12:03 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS  asked whether the Department  of Commerce,                                                               
Community,  & Economic  Development  (DCCED) was  present in  the                                                               
villages to  work on energy problems  with individual communities                                                               
that do not have the support of large utilities.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
4:13:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  BROWN said  her cooperative  is  in close  contact with  the                                                               
DCCED  office in  Bethel  when there  is an  issue.   The  Denali                                                               
Commission also provides some operations training once a year.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
4:14:06 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS  recommended the committee ask  AEA what is                                                               
being  done  to provide  uniform  training  to communities.    He                                                               
pointed out that  some rural communities are  very well organized                                                               
and managed,  and others are  struggling to hang on  through this                                                               
difficult winter.  To encourage  problem solving he re-stated the                                                               
idea of  a summit with  similar Canadian communities  and further                                                               
discussion with the AEA on analyst availability and training.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
4:15:49 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. BROWN  expressed her support  for both ideas,  and especially                                                               
for a loan education program through AEA.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
4:16:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  EDGMON  noted  that  officials of  AEA  and  DCCED  are                                                               
listening to the  testimony and further discussion  of this topic                                                               
could be continued on another occasion.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
4:17:27 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CRAIG  TORNGA, General  Manager, Oil  Industry Services,  Crowley                                                               
Marine  in Alaska,  gave a  brief PowerPoint  presentation.   Mr.                                                               
Tornga informed the committee Crowley  Marine has 21 fuel storage                                                               
facilities in  Alaska with  a capacity of  30 million  gallons of                                                               
storage.  In  every community, Crowley employs  100 percent local                                                               
hire for good  jobs with long-term employment  and good benefits.                                                               
His  company  has a  large  fleet  of  shallow draft  vessels  in                                                               
Western Alaska for coastal and river  use, and a slide showed two                                                               
new  vessels under  construction.    He displayed  a  slide of  a                                                               
vessel making a  difficult fuel delivery from the  beach and said                                                               
most deliveries  are made  without the  benefit of  a dock.   The                                                               
next slide  showed a delivery  in Hooper Bay  by a very  long red                                                               
hose strung  out to reach  the "header."   The next  slide showed                                                               
the  shallow  channel to  Newtok  with  the  barge stuck  on  the                                                               
bottom.   The next slide was  of Prince of Wales  Island with the                                                               
barge and a float hose operation  exposed to the ocean surf.  The                                                               
next slide  displayed a delivery  at Little Diomede with  a rocky                                                               
coast and no dock.  He explained   two weeks can be spent at some                                                               
of  these  locations, such  as  Gambell,  waiting for  acceptable                                                               
weather to make a delivery.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
4:22:30 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. TORNGA then  displayed a slide of the Chevak  lower tank farm                                                               
with small tanks  that must be filled individually.   He stressed                                                               
"time is cost" and each delivery  takes a lot of time, especially                                                               
with  a line-haul  vessel that  has  a deep  draft requiring  the                                                               
transfer of  the fuel  to a  lighterage vessel.   The  next slide                                                               
showed  the  fuel  storage  tank   at  Newtok  that  can  not  be                                                               
completely filled because  it has a bullet hole.   He pointed out                                                               
this  situation creates  a  liability for  his  company when  the                                                               
owners of the  tank farms do not take responsibility.   The slide                                                               
at  Nightmute showed  the barge  on  the beach,  waiting for  the                                                               
tide, and a red hose at the upper  tank farm that only has a two-                                                               
inch diameter.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
4:25:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  TORNGA,  in  response   to  Representative  Tuck,  explained                                                               
sometimes there is not a header  within reach of the hose and the                                                               
barge pumps  directly to  a tanker truck;  this situation,  as in                                                               
Twin Hills, takes  a lot of waiting time when  100,000 gallons of                                                               
fuel is loaded into 5,000 gallon  tanker trucks.  The final slide                                                               
displayed Platts Index of Market  Price Comparison that indicated                                                               
the  swings in  fuel prices  last summer.   Mr.  Tornga addressed                                                               
question one  and said product cost  is the first reason  for the                                                               
variation in  cost from  one village  to the next.   Next  is the                                                               
cost of local municipalities fees  and taxes; for example, Hooper                                                               
Bay has a  5 percent city sales  tax and Chevak does  not.  Other                                                               
variables  are transportation  and logistics,  the difficulty  of                                                               
delivery,  lighterage  operations, and  the  cost  of float  hose                                                               
operations.   He opined the  components that may be  improved are                                                               
customer operations;   for example, the lack  of adequate storage                                                               
that  makes  two  deliveries  necessary,   the  lack  of  trained                                                               
personnel on  the delivery site,  the credit limits  of customers                                                               
and payment  cycles, and  limited volume.   Mr.  Tornga addressed                                                               
question two  and said the  biggest component to  wide variations                                                               
in  cost is  product cost.    Lesser components  are the  weather                                                               
conditions,  beach erosion,  and volume.   He  addressed question                                                               
three   and   suggested   the  consolidation   of   storage   and                                                               
distribution has  the potential to make  a difference, especially                                                               
in  a village  of  500  residents that  has  three separate  tank                                                               
farms.   The    Denali  Commission is  funding  a  new tank  farm                                                               
"package"  but they  are  given  for a  single  purpose, are  not                                                               
consolidated, and do  not lower the operations cost  to the user.                                                               
In addition,  professional and  trained management  of operations                                                               
will lower  the cost  for receipt of  the delivery,  and securing                                                               
early  bookings will  result  in  lowering the  total  cost.   He                                                               
addressed  question  four  and  said   local  taxes  make  a  big                                                               
difference from  village to village.   Also,  delivery logistics,                                                               
regulatory requirements  from the U.S. Coast  Guard, spill plans,                                                               
Environmental  Protection  Agency  (EPA)  rules,  and  state  and                                                               
federal insurance requirements vary from  village to village.  He                                                               
addressed  question   five  and   re-stated  the   importance  of                                                               
centralizing  the  tank  farms and  improving  the  economies  of                                                               
scale.  He addressed question  six and listed the requirements of                                                               
the Coast  Guard, Occupational  Safety and  Health Administration                                                               
(OSHA),  the   ADC   spill plans,  and Certificates  of Financial                                                               
Responsibility  to  transport fuel  over  water  as some  of  the                                                               
regulations Crowley  Marine must  meet.  Furthermore,  there will                                                               
soon be  cost increases to  meet the  new EPA regulations  set by                                                               
the Oil Pollution Act of 1990 (OPA  90).  His  company's fleet of                                                               
single hull  line-haul barges will  have to be replaced  by 2015;                                                               
in  fact, four  new barges  will  be required  at a  cost of  $20                                                               
million  each.   In addition,  by 2010  new EPA  regulations will                                                               
require different handling of ultra  low-sulfur diesel in Alaska.                                                               
He addressed  question seven and  said his company  purchases the                                                               
majority  of its  fuel in  Alaska, some  on the  West Coast,  and                                                               
about 12 million gallons from foreign sources.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
4:37:46 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHANSEN  encouraged Mr. Tornga to  look in Alaska                                                               
for facilities with the capability to manufacture fuel barges.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
4:39:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  TORNGA said  Crowley Marine  sends barges  to Ketchikan  for                                                               
repair.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
There was a brief reference to the Ocean Ranger program.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHANSEN  asked  whether  Crowley  Marine  is  in                                                               
contact with  the Department of Environmental  Conservation (DEC)                                                               
to  improve the  tank farms  and  the delivery  situation in  the                                                               
villages.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
4:40:12 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  TORNGA  said  his  contact with  DEC  is  usually  regarding                                                               
Crowley  Marine tank  farms.   In further  response, he  said his                                                               
crew is not allowed to fill  the community tank farms that do not                                                               
have headers because, "those are risks we can't take."                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
4:40:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS asked whether  Crowley is liked and trusted                                                               
by the communities it serves.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
4:41:06 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. TORNGA remarked:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     You're the  guy at the  end of  the hose with  the high                                                                    
     price,  so they  always  look at  you  like you're  the                                                                    
     reason for the high price.   Now I will say in the last                                                                    
     couple of years that has changed dramatically ... they                                                                     
     now realize this is a global issue.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
4:41:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  RAMRAS likened  companies like  Crowley to  a "de                                                               
facto" utility because they are  the only provider for space heat                                                               
and electric generation  in these small communities.   He pointed                                                               
out  that  the RCA  regulates  utilities  in  Fairbanks at  a  12                                                               
percent rate of  return.  He asked whether  Crowley exceeded this                                                               
rate or fell below that level.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
4:42:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. TORNGA deferred the question to Mr. Sniffen.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
4:43:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS clarified  that he asked about  the rate of                                                               
return, not the percentage of pricing.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR.   TORNGA  opined   this  question   "crosses  the   line"  to                                                               
proprietary information.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  RAMRAS   opined  his  question  does   not  belie                                                               
proprietary information, thus  is not an anti-trust  issue.  This                                                               
is a reasonable question that  could be answered, and communities                                                               
are  interested in  the answer.    He said,  "We heard  a lot  of                                                               
public testimony,  with all  due respect,  to precisely  that end                                                               
... only two weeks ago."                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
4:44:36 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JUSTIN CHARON, Independent Consultant,  informed the committee he                                                               
was an independent  consultant but his testimony was  not for the                                                               
benefit of a client.  Previously, he  was a 50 percent owner of a                                                               
fuel company  in Anchorage,  and prior  to that  he was  the vice                                                               
president of  Yukon Fuel.   His experience in the  industry, from                                                               
1998 through  2005, was studying  the costs of  fuel distribution                                                               
in Western Alaska.   Mr. Charon summarized three  reasons for the                                                               
price  differences between  villages:   timing of  the inventory;                                                               
the  actual delivery  cost; and  big pricing  differences between                                                               
the  independent owners.   He  pointed out  the vast  majority of                                                               
tank farms in  Western Alaska are owned by third  party bulk fuel                                                               
owners with a variety of compliance levels and capital.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
4:46:43 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS asked what can  be done to bring uniformity                                                               
to all of the different communities  so they are all based on the                                                               
most successful model.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
4:47:27 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. CHARON  recalled the Denali Commission,  through Rural Alaska                                                               
Fuel  Services, Inc.  (Rafs),  came up  with a  model  on what  a                                                               
responsibly run tank  farm should look like;   however, this help                                                               
"may  not get  you to  the  prices you  want."   For example,  he                                                               
compared Hooper Bay, that has  a better infrastructure and higher                                                               
fuel  prices,   with  Chevik,  that   has  lower  prices   and  a                                                               
deteriorating tank farm.  He  opined bringing all of the villages                                                               
to compliance  "[is] the  right answer,  but not  necessarily the                                                               
cheapest answer."   In  fact, it would  eliminate the  village to                                                               
village discrepancies, but may mean a higher price.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
4:48:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS asked whether there  is gouging going on in                                                               
some communities that are served by a single supplier.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
4:49:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. CHARON said  it is very unlikely that there  is gouging going                                                               
on in a wide-spread basis.   He re-stated that each community has                                                               
its  own  independent  fuel  provider;  however,  most  of  those                                                               
providers are  the city or a  Native corporation.  As  far as the                                                               
big  companies -  the  fuel  distributors -  he  said, "I'm  very                                                               
confident there is  no gouging going on there,  I've studied that                                                               
in depth, many times."  Mr.  Charon explained when the prices get                                                               
too high, Delta [Western] and  Crowley [Marine] will aggressively                                                               
compete with  each other  and reinvest in  equipment.   There are                                                               
barriers  to  entering this  market,  but  the barriers  are  not                                                               
insurmountable.   In  fact, there  is a  new company  called Ruby                                                               
Marine on the  Yukon River.  Furthermore, if  there were gouging,                                                               
other  investors would  come into  the market  "and level  things                                                               
out."  He acknowledged the  Western Alaska market is expensive to                                                               
come  into  because  it  is   capital  intensive  and  fixed-cost                                                               
intensive.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
4:50:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS  asked whether  the rate of  return exceeds                                                               
the rate of return enjoyed by utilities regulated by the RCA.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  CHARON said  he  did not  know the  profits  of Crowley  and                                                               
Delta; however, at  Yukon Fuel, the "after tax  return would have                                                               
been something we would have looked forward to."  He remarked:                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     The typical RCA  return isn't a pre-tax  return, it's a                                                                    
     post-tax return, and that post-tax  return was a number                                                                    
     that  was attractive  to us.   We  many times  joked we                                                                    
     would be better off that way."                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. CHARON  then gave  the example of  Bethel, where  $50 million                                                               
worth of steel in the tank farm,  in addition to the value of the                                                               
fuel, is a  total capital investment of $80 million.   It is very                                                               
hard to make  a return on that investment, even  though the gross                                                               
profit may be  very attractive.  Prior to the  sale of Yukon Fuel                                                               
to  Crowley, prospective  investors  were asking  for returns  in                                                               
excess of 25  percent; in fact, venture capitalists  will not get                                                               
into this market because the returns are so low.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
4:52:49 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR EDGMON asked for Mr.  Charon's suggestions regarding the                                                               
consolidation  of facilities  in order  to maximize  efficiencies                                                               
and generate economies of scale.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
4:53:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. CHARON  agreed with  Ms. Brown  and Mr.  Tornga in  that tank                                                               
farms are very heavy in fixed  cost and the consolidation of tank                                                               
farms would  be very  efficient.  For  example, a  600,000 gallon                                                               
facility  would cost  about $.50  per  gallon to  run, whereas  a                                                               
200,000 facility  would cost about  $1.25 to  run.  This  is also                                                               
true  of regionalization  in  that fuel  companies  can focus  on                                                               
fewer delivery  sites.  In  addition, increasing capacity  of the                                                               
tank farms  will reduce the  number of deliveries and  generate a                                                               
cost savings as well.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
4:54:36 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR EDGMON asked  whether there were sources  for price data                                                               
other than the Division of Community & Regional Affairs, DCCED.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
4:54:48 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. CHARON said no.   However, customers keep businesses informed                                                               
about competitor's prices.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
4:55:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PETERSEN asked:                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
      If there was regulation by the RCA in rural Alaska,                                                                       
      it's your opinion that the prices would actually be                                                                       
     higher now then what they actually are?                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
4:55:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. CHARON answered, "more than likely, yes."                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
4:55:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS asked where relief  could come from for the                                                               
residents of the villages.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
4:56:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. CHARON  encouraged the committee  to try [to  help], although                                                               
there no easy  answers.  He predicted $150 per  barrel oil prices                                                               
will return  someday and everyone  should prepare for that.   Mr.                                                               
Charon re-stated the expense of  doing business in the region and                                                               
the  need to  address  credit  issues in  order  to prevent  last                                                               
minute orders.   Theoretically, if  everyone had a tank  farm big                                                               
enough to hold  one year's worth of fuel, and  all orders were in                                                               
by May 1,  the fuel companies would respond  by minimizing repeat                                                               
trips  and  planning deliveries  by  the  map and  the  equipment                                                               
needed.   He also  encouraged continued support  of the  AEA Bulk                                                               
Fuel  Revolving  Loan Fund  and  suggested  the department  could                                                               
provide management and pricing assistance to the borrowers.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
4:58:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SMOKEY  NORTON, Director  of  Marketing,  Petro Marine  Services,                                                               
informed the committee  Petro Marine Services is  not in business                                                               
in Western Alaska  but has marine market  facilities in Southeast                                                               
and coastal Southcentral.  He  referred to the previous testimony                                                               
and said,  "Most of  the ground  has been  plowed."   However, he                                                               
pointed out a  tremendous challenge for his company  was that the                                                               
cost  component of  the  fuel was  "least  controllable."   Petro                                                               
Marine worked  to manage terminal  and labor cost, and  to invest                                                               
well,  but to  stay in  business, it  must pass  on the  purchase                                                               
cost.   An equal challenge will  be to use the  large inventories                                                               
of high priced  fuel after the prices begin to  fall.  Mr. Norton                                                               
assured  the committee  "screaming customers  are the  last thing                                                               
that  you want."    He  also predicted  that  the  cost of  doing                                                               
business will increase with the  expense of the new double-hulled                                                               
barges.  On the subject  of reducing expenses for Western Alaska,                                                               
he   suggested   conservation   practices  would   be   effective                                                               
"household to household."                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
5:01:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  PETERSEN asked  whether  Petro Marine's  business                                                               
was all in Southeast Alaska.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
5:02:41 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. NORTON stated his company  serves many very small communities                                                               
and all  of the  cities of Southeast,  and most  of Southcentral,                                                               
including Cook  Inlet, Kodiak, Valdez,  and Cordova.   In further                                                               
response  to  Representative  Petersen,   he  said  Petro  Marine                                                               
purchases most  of its fuel  for Southcentral in Nikiski  and the                                                               
fuel for  Southeast in the  [Pacific] Northwest.   Recently there                                                               
have   been  some   supply  problems.      Again  responding   to                                                               
Representative Petersen  he said the supply  problems happen with                                                               
both the Alaska and the  West Coast refineries.  Furthermore, the                                                               
distributors do not have the flexibility  to try to save money by                                                               
"timing" the purchase of fuel.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
5:05:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PETERSEN  asked whether refinery prices  are lower                                                               
on the West Coast than in Alaska.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
5:05:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. NORTON said yes.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
5:06:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
There being no  further business before the  committee, the House                                                               
Special Committee on Energy meeting was adjourned at 5:06 p.m.                                                                  

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
C&RA Fuel Document.pdf HENE 3/12/2009 3:00:00 PM
Cakll for Information.pdf HENE 3/12/2009 3:00:00 PM
Northstar Gas Paper.pdf HENE 3/12/2009 3:00:00 PM
Preapproved Questions.pdf HENE 3/12/2009 3:00:00 PM